At the Extraordinary Travel Festival last November in Bangkok, we had the pleasure of meeting in person the festival’s founder, Ric Gazarian of the Counting Countries podcast.

Ric is a fascinating guy as well as a talented photographer and storyteller, and he was part of the segment we did on the world’s best-traveled people for ABC television.

He interviewed us recently, and we had a delightful conversation about everything from making the transition from working full time to traveling full time, what counts as a “real” visit when you’re on the quest to visit all 193 U.N. countries, how travel has shaped our marriage and our family, and, of course, shawarma.

Click to listen to the episode and be sure to follow Ric for more details about the next Extraordinary Travel Festival, scheduled for 2026.